THIS IS WHY
THIS IS EXACTLY WHY I CAN’T DEAL WITH PEOPLE SAYING TIM NEVER FORGAVE DICK FOR WHAT WENT DOWN AT THE START OF RED ROBIN
THIS IS EXACTLY WHHHHHHHHHHHHHHY
we tend forgive the people we love for shit they do to us all the time. but it’s like pro said, forgetting is another thing entirely. throwing in a bit of personal experience, i sometimes get so mad at people i love and i end up bringing up things they did that really hurt me and fucked me up. and it’s a shitty thing to do but it’s a kind of pain that never goes away.
i think it’s even worse because dick never even ackwoledged he did something wrong. he never sat down with tim and said ‘yeah, i fucked up. i’m sorry’. imagine how tim feels: robin was taken from him by someone he loves and trusts. someone who knows his history. being robin was practically the only connection he had left to bruce at that point. it was the one thing he had left. you know, tim managed to soothe bruce’s pain. don’t get me wrong, the entire batfam sort of soothes his pain in a way or another, but back then jason had died and dick and bruce were on horrible terms and tim just wanted to help so much and he did and he became robin and it was his title and he was bruce’s robin not dick’s robin and the only one who could take it away was bruce and bruce was dead and dick went on to rip it off from tim’s hand and give it to damian who at that time was pacing around proclaiming to be bruce’s real son, implicating tim had no right to wear that mantle because he was not bruce’s son and dick stood there doing nothing except preaching about being a good brother without realizing how much pain he was causing. things get even worse because tim named himself red robin. note that both dick and jason refrained from using ‘robin’ in their titles. dick was nightwing, jason was red hood and no one had any clue whatsoever they were ever robins except for some major villains. tim was red robin. and then all the pain that was caused by no one believing in the kid, even though he was right the entire time. also that time dick preached about doing the right thing and not using the pit to bring back tim’s loved ones because it’d be unnatural and yet dick himself tried to use the pit when it suited his need to bring back bruce.
and through it all, there was never a ‘i’m so sorry’. not one that actually adressed dick’s mistakes properly.
i bet dick sometimes say something silly to tim, something among the lines of ‘c’mon little bro, i love you, you know i’d never do anything to hurt you’ or whatever and tim has to bite his tongue to not spill any of his sadness/anger while thinking ‘yeah, right.’ even if he’s always there for tim. even if everything’s okay.
It’s 4am, so I’m sorry if this comes off meaner than it should but this bothered me so bad that I could not sleep.
I’m sorry but this sounds like you’re throwing Dick under the bus and it’s so not far to Dick. You’re talking about all the pain Tim went through but what about Dick. This was right after Battle of the Cowl. The city was in ruin, gangs were everywhere, everything was in chaos and part of it was cause by Jason. Someone had to take charge and it feel on Dick’s shoulders—Dick who, by the way, was suffering greatly from Bruce’s death. You take about Tim’s pain but completely ignore the fact that Dick was in grief too, but had not choice but to make a decision.
A desicion I agree with because couldn’t be Robin anymore. Tim was a seventeen year old young man who was growing out of the suit. At the point of mourning Tim was at, he was never going to take off the suit. It had grown on him like second skin and telling him to take it off was akin to tell him to peel the skin off. But Tim still should have been taken out of the suit. Tim’s mental state at the was all over the place. He indirectly killed two children and could not feel guilt about it until maybe weeks later. He started a gang war to end a gang war. Tim was acting like Bruce while wearing the Robin suit and he can’t do that there. Robin is a suit meant for young heroes—for children growing into adults. Tim could not GROW BEING STUCK AS ROBIN! AT ALL! His refusal to move up would have hurt Tim in the future.
Once more, Damian was Dick’s responsibility at the time and he had to make a choice with him. He needed something to give to Damian that either proved him or his mother that he would not be taken from the family, Dick gave him Robin.
Am I going to say he did it in the right way? NO. NOT AT ALL. Dick did it in the worse possible way. Dick’s thing is that he has really good intentions but horrible execution. He didn’t think this through
which funny because the entire arc of Red Robin is about how Tim didn’t think it through
because they were both in grief.
Like, why should have to say this? Dick was in grief. If everyone can except that Tim made mistakes while suffering from loss, why can’t Dick? Why do you assume Dick didn’t understand that he was taking something away from Tim? There’s no proof that Dick didn’t and for all logical reason he would because ROBIN means something to Dick, too. Or did you totally forget about the part where Dick was upset about Jason taking over as Robin even though he willfully shed the identity?
From my point of view, Dick totally knew what he was doing was going to hurt Tim? Wrong, though? I don’t see as wrong. I see as a necessary evil for someone who was under stress and in mourning and didn’t have time to think anything through because he had a ticking TIME BOMB for a city on his lap.
I’m not going to blame at all for that situation nor am I going to blame TIM. THEY WERE IN GRIEF. WHEN YOU’RE IN GRIEF, YOU DO THINGS THAT HURT PEOPLE.
And as for Dick not believing Tim—are you kidding? Even TIM knew how it sounded. Tim was upset no believed him but he knew the reasons why no one believed him and if it was reverse, Tim might have reacted like Dick.
So, yeah, Dick hurt Tim. Dick hurt Tim because he was in grief, just like Tim hurt others because he was in grief. I’m not saying that they should FORGET. As someone who has siblings whose done just as bad as Dick, I know exactly what this situation is like—especially when it does not ever involve an apology. It hurts and it’s in the air and it deserves a proper look at, but PLEASE for the love of God, don’t tell me for a second that Dick was totally at fault here. Dick is a lot of things
oblivious to other people’s feelings is not one of them.
i understand he was in mourning, i understand his decisions were based on grief and i understand he had to take responsability over damian. i didn’t mean to sound like i hated dick or didn’t understand him at all. i love him, and he’s got a lot of qualities and he’s the bright one, the optmistic one BUT! he’s selfish and he can do a lot of damage in his grief and anger and even in his happiness. like that time he proposed to babs and then called it off, that time when he was kissing starfire and then telling bruce babs was the love of his life and that he should tell her that in case he died.
the fact he fought tim and used all kinds of mental guilt to make him not use the pit and then used the pit himself because he needed bruce back more than anything proves how much of a selfish ass he can be.
there’s actually a great post around him about this and i will find it later and edit it in here.
my point is, tim was not a man at all. too old for the suit? maybe. but it was his and not dick’s to take. it was something he needed to hold on. tim was a scared teenage boy who was being forced to watch all his foundations crumble. and dick knew that. that’s the problem, you know? dick knew tim was in pain too. dick knew how important being robin, even if tim was growing out of the suit, meant. he knew. and the thing about making decision while clouded by grief is that we can create damage, wounds that keep on bleeding regardless of how much time you spend taking care of them.
and yes tim knew how it sounded when he kept saying bruce was alive. but the thing is, dick not believing him was like a punch. it doesn’t matter if he sounded crazy. i bet we all had that experience of telling the truth, no matter how silly the truth was, and having someone not believe us. someone we love. it hurts. it hurts like hell. dick thought he was doing the right thing when in reality, he was just isolating tim. he was staright up telling the boy ‘look, i love you but you’re sounding crazy, cut that shit out, get out of that suit and go see someone, please, i’m dealing with a lot of shit here too.’
and i get that. i get he did have too much going, he didn’t even know how to deal with what was going on with tim because he was in so much pain he wasn’t even thinking straight. on top of that, he had to take care of damian and make sure the kid didn’t go on a murderous path.
but dick being in pain and in grief does not justify him ignoring tim’s pain. does not justify him taking something from tim, calling tim’s friends to talk to him about how crazy everyone thought he was (i mean, seriously) and it does not justify dick not believing in tim. because they do not live in a world where everything is normal, they live in a world where people from other worlds/dimensions and whatever come to see them and fight them. sometimes they meet different versions of themselves.that’s the world they live in. and dick was so deep in grief and in denial that he simply forgot about that and couldn’t accept that maybe, just maybe, tim was right. and that was a horrible thing to do.
and even if it’s all forgiven, it’s something that will stick with tim for the rest of his life. you know, dick used to trust tim without ever questioning him. dick was the one who always went up to tim like ‘so, i bet you have a plan’ and tim was all ‘don’t i always?’ because that’s how much they trusted each other, and i think that’s just sad.
tim was really hurt then and if i talk about it more than i talk about how everyone else was suffering is only because no one actually addressed tim’s pain. (i mean no one in the comic world. there are so many great texts about tim’s pain during that time around tumblr, though.)
people were lying to tim and calling him crazy and taking thngs from him and expecting him to just accept it. and that was all based on grief, i know. everyone’s actions back then were based on grief. but it was still a shitty, horrible thing that happened to tim. and when it was over, everyone was like ‘oooh….that’s why you were doing what you were doing.’ but no one was like ‘hey, kid, sit down. i’m sorry for hurting you.’